Hannah Smith shares her journey to digital sustainability, representing the Green Web Foundation, and founding Green Tech South West - a community championing the application of tech in the South West of England to heal Climate Change.
Transcript
Annie Legge 0:00
Hello, and welcome to the Tech for Good South-West Podcast. I'm Annie, your host for today's episode. And I'm delighted to welcome Hannah Smith to the studio today. Hannah is co founder of Green Tech South-West, which is a community focused on how to use tech to take climate action. And also Director of Operations of Green Web Foundation. Welcome to you, Hannah.
Hannah Smith 0:23
Annie, thanks so much for having me here today. And yeah, really excited to chat all things, digital sustainability with you.
Annie Legge 0:31
Yeah, amazing. So perhaps First, we'd love to find out a little bit more aroun Green Web Foundation. And obviously your role there. But particularly also interested in how what led you to Green Web Foundation? Where did it all start?
Hannah Smith 0:46
With all these things, it was an interesting journey. I'll start with, yeah, just explaining what green Web Foundation is. So we're a nonprofit. With a funny structure, we're actually registered in the Netherlands, most of us work in Berlin, but I'm based in Somerset, go figure.
So we're quite a, you know, a dispersed team. And our mission is quite simple. We want to see a fossil free Internet by 2030. So we do a lot of work around creating tools for people to use, we're really into open source. So we've got a few open source tools that people can use to check whether a website is running on a green hosting company or not. And when we say green, we mean, powered by renewable energies, 100% powered by renewable energy. So we've got open source tools around that. They're called the Green web checker tools.
We've also got some software packages to help people estimate the co2 emissions arising from software, which is quite cool. My background is in coding. So my degree is in computer science, I'm pretty technical. So I do love working on those tools. And we also do like a lot of training. And we also do a lot of changing the narratives around a lot of this stuff as well. Particularly the narrative around digital is green by default, because it's definitely not definitely better than real life alternatives. But digital intrinsically is not green by default. So yeah, that's really interesting. And my role as Director of Operations, I think we're small, we're seven people, and a lot of the team work part time.
So you know, when you're a small team, you have your fingers in all the pies, though. So I do a little bit of coding, I look after the finances and the HR. I'm out there talking and advocating for fossil free internet, as well as you know, sometimes dealing with support requests and fixing bugs and things. So yeah, it's a very, very interesting role. And a really, really cool organisation as well, I'm really lucky to be part of it, actually.
Annie Legge 2:56
Yeah, I've seen some of the work that you're doing at Green web Foundation, and it is really exciting to see more organisations and initiatives really focused focus on there. So very, obviously, you have a passion around digital sustainability. And just what I guess what led you to this point where you're sort of working life, if you like, he's very much focused on digital sustainability. I wanted to know if there was a moment in which you were like, That's what I want to do.
Hannah Smith 3:24
Yeah, it's a really great question. I mean, I think, for me, I definitely have always had a really strong connection to wanting to tackle climate change wanting the world to be more green or environmental. And that's, like, always been with me, even as a kid. So I had, I think I mentioned already my degree was in computer science. I spent a while working at the Environment Agency as well in my in my 20s. After working at Environment Agency, I kind of fell back into being a freelance developer, and actually working as a freelance WordPress developer and being very, very involved with the WordPress community. I know WordPress gets a lot of rap, but honestly, I really, really rate WordPress and the whole community. It's a really inclusive, welcoming space to be a developer.
Anyway, so I was quite involved in running in the WordPress community. And in 2018, I went to WordCamp Europe. And WordCamp Europe's as the name suggests a big gathering of WordPress people. That year, it happened to be in Belgrade. And I remember really enjoying myself and at the end of the conference, I was like, oh, you know, what have I learned? What am I reflections? I remember sitting in the apartment I'd rented for the week and being like, I had an observation and that was that nobody, anyone at all at that conference had talked about sustainability issues or climate change or anything environmental at all, like literally nothing. And you know, we're talking about a gathering of 3000 people, we're talking about three tracks of talks that run over two days.
So it was that kind of moment where I was like, Okay, I'm going to try and change that. I think that I reckon I could be in a good position to have an influence within the WordPress community. I was very involved. I was running Bristol WordPress group at the time, I was starting to really understand how the mechanics of the open source community work. And I was like, right, I'm going to set myself an intention, while no particular timestamp on it, but just an intention that we're going to find a way to change it. And then later, next year, in May 2019, I was running Bristol, Bristol's Word Press Conference of WordCamp, Bristol, it was called. And I went out of my way to build sustainability into that conference.
So really kind of like getting some talks about green topics, I was like, quite open to anything, and made sure that all the food was vegetarian that we went out of our way to tell people about public transport options, you know, did did all the things. And one of the talks that we had there was from Wholegrain Digital, some of you if you're into this kind of topic might know wholegrain digital, if you don't definitely check them out. They are awesome. They are cool on there. Yeah, I really love their their work in that ethos and, and they're part of the WordPress community where they came down and gave a talk about building planet friendly websites, basically, I think their talk was called a study in green. And I had this lightbulb moment, I was like, oh my god, whoa, I have not at this point realised that. I mean, it's it's kind of silly when I say out, kind of not realise or not put two and two together that digital is of course running on energy, or electricity, that's got to come from somewhere. And the more digital stuff we do, the more energy or electricity we're, we're responsible for consuming.
I think it was because you know, we've been told Digital is green by default, you know, go digital, save the planet, used to see all those things at the bottom of email, footers. Don't print, save the environment, you know, store this email electronically or saving the environment. And it was that talk from Wholegrain Digital where this big light bulb flicked on in my head. And then a month later, I went to WordCamp, Europe 2019, which was in Berlin that year. And Jack Lennox was giving a talk on a really similar topic. And you know, sometimes it's like buses, I was kind of waiting to find the thing that I could really hang my hat on. And then they both kind of came these two things happened at once Jack's talk in Berlin, Wholegrain Digital's talk in WordCamp Bristol, and I was like, oh, hooray, okay, I think I found my calling here. I think I can advocate and talk about this issue and build on this issue. From 2019, I just kind of really started to do talks at conferences and meetup groups and kind of found myself, I'd say, sliding down a slippery slope. But it was a really good slope. Like it wasn't a bad slope. It was like a very intentional slide, if you like, and kind of found myself by sort of 2022 quite fully immersed in this whole, this whole industry or discipline, I suppose. But yeah, that was kind of the story. I then found a group called Climate Action dot tech. And again, if you're really into this stuff, and you're not aware of the climate action dot tech community, that's definitely one for your list. Go off and check it out. They're a great community. And it was through climate action dot tech that I met Chris Adams, who was the executive director of the green Web Foundation. And Chris and I kind of got working and chatting and hatched a plan that we would work together when when some funding came through. And the funding came through the beginning of 2022. And that's when I started working full time at the green Web Foundation and totally hung up my WordPress developer hat.
Annie Legge 9:19
So just quickly on the Green Web Foundation, then that really only started to gain traction very recently by the sounds of it.
Hannah Smith 9:27
Well, it's an interesting one, actually, the Green Web Foundation's been around since 2006. well ahead of its time, actually. And at that point, it was very much focused on being just this green web checker thing that I mentioned. But in 2019, Chris got more involved with the founder, Renee, who was kind of running it as a side project and said, Hey, there's legs in this. And in 2019, I'd say the sort of next version of the Greenberg Foundation came along then where it was sort of looking more broadly at Digital sustainability issues and climate justice issues as well. But yeah, so I'd say sort of in the last two or three years, the green web Foundation's really kind of gained traction.
Annie Legge 10:13
Yeah. And I think for this moment in time, it feels like it can only continue to, to sort of grow from there is that what you're seeing that there's kind of a lot more dialogue, a lot more conversation, a lot more interest in the open source tools, and the sort of support that you provide?
annah Smith 10:29
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say, two or three years ago, like you said, digital sustainability to people. And people be like, what now? Pardon me? Who up? There was a real lack of awareness on the topic. I think today, you say that, and people have some opinions on what it might be, or maybe already doing some stuff. And a very, very, very hungry for, like you say, tools, solutions. Actual, we sometimes call them patterns, patterns are things that people can do to actually make a difference. So yeah, I think the demand is growing, I think in the philanthropic movement, as well. Digital sustainability is starting to become an issue that is gaining funding as well and is being seen as a thing in its own right.
Annie Legge 11:19
Definitely, definitely. Thank you so much. It was very interesting to kind of listen to that story. And I guess how you got into digital sustainability. And I can sense from all the things you get involved with organising events, the word camp Bristol, talking at conferences and events has obviously really led to founding green tech southwest, this kind of passion, I suppose for community organising as well as advocacy around digital sustainability. So I'd love to find out a little bit about where that came into your story. And how that happened.
Hannah Smith 11:54
I sort of had this lightbulb moment of wanting to get into digital sustainability, I was currently running the Bristol WordPress group. And I mean, anyone that runs a community group will know that you get out as much as you put in, and the I'm sure that's kind of familiar to you, as well. You know, you stand to gain an awful lot from being a community organiser and bringing people together and learn stuff you network. So I decided, sort of at the end of 2019, after we've done Bristol WordCamp, that I wanted to flip that energy from WordPress into digital sustainability stuff. I couldn't definitely couldn't do both at the same time, like, you know, I've got a life outside of work. And maintaining boundaries is really, really important.
I decided with regret to stop at the Bristol WordPress group and pick found something new. And, and I decided that Bristol was like, such an amazing place. You've got this really strong tech sector, this really strong sustainability sector. And I was looking around and I was like, Yeah, but there's no one place where this is coming together. Where these two kind of edges meet, where there's this interesting overlap of people that want to work with tech and want to, you know, do good things with it to certainly in terms of sustainability. So yeah, so my intention was to find a meetup group that would, you know, kind of meet that need, basically, and bring those people together and put a bit of focus on that issue. So at the start of 2020, that green tech southwest came into being.
Annie Legge 13:41
And can you explain a little bit around you? Because I think you have others involved, don't you with green tech? Southwest?
Hannah Smith 13:49
Yeah, absolutely. So that story with Mike - how Mike and Ellen came to work here and I came to work together. It's quite a good one, actually. Again, it's funny, like, sometimes you it was a bit like buses. Anyway, I'll tell the story. And then and then we can see the parallels perhaps, or some of the other things that have been part of my journey. So um, so yeah, I very much had this intention independently of setting up green tech southwest.
To begin with, I was talking with Nick Henley who was running BrisTech. I've helped out at Bruce tech a couple of times. And Nick, Nick was really interested in this kind of stuff, too. So we met over a few coffees and you know, shed some ideas about making this happen. But I think Nick realised quite quickly that Bristol Tech was enough on his plate, so we weren't able to take it together as a collaboration much further. So I decided to go it alone. I was like, Well, I believe in this so I'm just going to kind of find so kind of we're scrambling around in the background and sort of thinking about venues and dates and making all this happen and was bout to publish an event invites around the sort of middle of February of 2020. And I mean, like, literally a few days before I was about to press go on that this other green tech southwest thing popped up. And I got an invite to this group called Green Tech southwest. And I was like, Whoa, what's going on here? And I discovered that Mike and Ellen, who were working Ad Lib Recruitment at this, at the same time had had exactly the same idea. And you know, what was really weird. They also published the event for the same week that I had in mind. And I was like, hmm, the universe is maybe trying to tell me something here. A, this is a good idea and be I'm maybe not as alone as I thought. So I dropped them a line and showed them everything I'd done, said to them, you know, look, I've been running events for a really long time, you know, would you be interested in joining forces rather than making something that competes? Because that's crazy. And yeah, they were really, really open to it. And where are we now? What, like 36 events later, we're a pretty solid, solid Green Tech, Southwest team and a pretty solid Green Tech Southwest community.
Annie Legge 16:13
But yeah, that happened. I know. The thing is exactly the same happened with Tech for Good southwest because it was Cat and I who co founded it at the time 2017 or so. And we were, we were sort of fed up with travelling up to London for any kind of Tech for Good meet up and conversations, we'll we'll do it here in Bath, we'll launch Tech for Good bar. And then a Tech for Good Bristol popped up within within weeks. And we were like that is a no real serendipity and which is why the two groups then merged.
A year or two later, we kind of worked in collaboration and sort of said, then there was always a kind of tech forget event happening every month across bath and Bristol. And then we decided that obviously community organising is amazing. And as you said, you get a lot out of it. You learn you get to meet amazing people across the network. But it's also really hard and takes takes a lot of time. And that kind of continued energy. So as joining together really made a difference with that. And it sounds like from when we've chatted before as well, the way that you run the network with Mike and Ellen feels like you have a really well oiled machine to obviously deliver that many events. Since 2020. And very much a sort of team based approach. Could you share a little bit around how that, like what what do you think is the sort of secret sauce in terms of making that? Keep momentum? Yeah,
Hannah Smith 17:35
I mean, there's definite passion, like we love, we love doing it. And we all realise that we gain something from doing it. And we gain something from doing it well, as well. We have quite clear sense of responsibility between the three of us. So given my day job, I you know, I'm very much out there in in green tech networks, finding people or meeting people. So actually, I tend to be the one bringing speakers in, Mike is just so good at then kind of keeping the speaker's informed up of the events, he always does a kind of run through with them ahead of the events, answers their questions, he's really, really good at that. And then Ellen is fantastic at doing a write up at the end of the event as well. And so these three parts, you know, I'm sort of the horizon scanner, if you like, Mike is sort of the pre event prep man. And Elon is the queen of riding up the events, publishing the video, getting the slides off the speakers and, and we kind of you know, we do swap roles occasionally. But we each kind of have a really clear sense of responsibility. And then of course, we all run the event together as well. And we've each got our kind of roles within that. And then we all kind of pitch in on marketing, sharing the events, encouraging people to come. But it's just really, really neat that we've three of us have kind of found niches within this sort of way of running the events that we're all just quite naturally happy doing.
So I think that's part of why it works so well. So we know our roles, and we just crack on with it. And we trust each other.
Annie Legge 19:17
And I think that's where there's a sort of interesting why relationship between, for example, Green Tech Southwest and Tech for Good southwest, I know you and I've talked around the sort of the niche areas not that it is niche, I mean, digital sustainability, and the topics that you cover is is really broad, but at the moment, it's within that niche of, of digital sustainability, whereas Tech for Good Southwest is is very much a wider, broader conversation that I think ultimately we'll see lots more sort of kind of niche communities that we have the sort of ethics and AI group really getting momentum now in Bristol with Karen Rudolph, and I'm sure lots of others sort of emerging and I think we've spoken about For this kind of idea of kind of cross pollinating communities and signposting people, and of course, people move in and out of areas of interest. I'm just interested in your perspective around that relationship.
Hannah Smith 20:11
Yeah, definitely. I did a permaculture course many years ago. I mean, lots of things stuck with me from that course. But one of the things I really took away and that I apply in so many different areas of life these days, remember, the, the instructor Sarah Pugh, she said, it's actually where edges overlap, that the most interesting things happen. It's like the edges of woodland, it's the shoreline on the scene. It's where gardens meet rural life, it it's, it's these edges. And I think that's very, very true of communities as well. It's where communities overlap with each other, and cross pollinate and learn from each other, also realise how much they've got in common. That's where you get really interesting innovation and ideas happening. So I think it's really, really cool that we've got like, in the southwest, this nice umbrella of Tech for Good.
And I'd argue, I mean, depending on what you know, about sustainability. But I would argue that sustainability is way more than just thinking about carbon emissions and climate change, it is thinking about social factors. And therefore it is thinking about tech for good in the in the widest possible sense. I'm so grateful that we've got a sort of hub that can bring all of these things together. And I think, you know, collaborating across pollinating events, kind of bringing these two communities together, or three communities, because you mentioned tech ethics as well, is a really, really nice thing to do. And it brings these different communities who think, oh, I don't know, maybe I'm not that interested in sustainability. And then actually, when they hear more about sustainability, they go, oh, oh, I'm kind of doing it. And then realise that maybe they they are more affiliated to a different cause. And they realised,
Annie Legge 22:09
Absolutely. I definitely agree with that. And there's so there's there is a sort of, I get a sense of some real kind of momentum around around the space, more people wanting to have conversation, more initiatives popping up more communities, which is just really exciting, because there's very clearly more, more momentum to be had there. I think I'd love to just touch on something that you mentioned earlier around, keeping some really good boundaries with you. You're working world and your personal life. Yet the work that you're doing with green Web Foundation, and green tech southwest seems to vary clearly from how you talk about it dial into your kind of purpose, and you have a lot of passion around the work that you do. So how do you manage to maintain those boundaries, I've definitely got a lot to learn in that space. And I think that's what's really hard when you find the work that you feel really passionate about. How to kind of keep those boundaries running communities is takes a lot of energy. And obviously, you can't sustain that energy day in, day out. So yeah, just love to hear what, whether you have any sort of insights and perspectives around how you've learned that?
Hannah Smith 23:21
Well, I mean, I've definitely learnt it the hard way. That's for sure. You know, definitely had a few moments of spectacular burnout. But I think you're right, I mean, it is tricky when you're passionate about something, and it does kind of then blur between work and personal life. So I think one of the mindsets that I have around this stuff, and actually my husband's been really helpful with with helping me get there is to realise that rest is work. And that actually, when you have a relaxed mind, you have a more creative mind. And actually, creativity is what we need to solve a lot of these problems. So when I put it in those terms to myself and say that it is actually my duty to turn up to work each day or to turn up to whatever it is I'm doing that day refreshed, relaxed, and not ragged, refreshed, relaxed and not ragged. That's an interesting thing.
So when I set that intention with myself and and view it that way, then I do find myself working differently. And don't feel guilty at closing the laptop at five or half five I don't feel guilty about taking a day off or giving myself a bit of space and a bit of grace to kind of do other things. Yeah, because it's just when you're tired, you don't you're not doing justice, to whatever it is that you're working on. And so really what's the point? So it does mean at times I have to say no to things, things that I really desperately We want to be working on with, you know, with with a lot more intense WordPress community stuff, actually, WordPress has just been able to create a formal sustainability team, which is an amazing thing, I think it's the first kind of open source software of this size to have a team dedicated to sustainability. And I'm hoping that means we'll be able to get, get some people funded to work on it.
But last year, I was, you know, really part of the machinery of trying to get that off the ground. And after November, I just said, there were a team of us working on it, I just said, I'm so so sorry, but I can't keep doing this. And I have to step away, and I'm available on the sidelines. But I can't lead the meetings. And I can't, I can't be the one setting the direction on this and sort of be the figurehead. I said that has to be picked up by someone else. And I just need a bit of space. And of course, people that work in these kinds of realms will always understand and respect when you say something like that. The hard part is just saying it and then sticking to it.
Annie Legge 26:07
Yeah, I know, I'm interested to know whether there that you have something, whether it's in your mind, or whether it's written down that keeps you sort of checking in with, Am I doing the things that are the most important to me that they are my priority to make sure that they're part of my work? Because I think that making those decisions must be so hard. And particularly in the world that you're in as well. There's so many things I'm sure you could get involved with. But it's knowing that you've ticked the right boxes for now, that makes any sense.
Hannah Smith 26:42
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't have a sort of magic formula. I mean, I think that it's really hard to know what the most high value or impactful things will be. In first and foremost, I've got to pay attention to the things that keep me in my job, you know, that keeps me able to do this. So I do have to pay attention to where the funding is coming from and longgevity of my roles, and that the project management stuff that sits underlying underlying it all. And I do try really hard to do have a mix of things that are that I know I should do that maybe don't excite me so much like that. And then a few things sprinkled in there that I just really feel passionate about, or really kind of want to do so that the fun and the passion remains in place.
But it's balanced with the stuff that you know you should do. And if there's too much fun, I mean, I say fun, sort of like, you know, sort of Alex, you know, I mean, if there's too much fun and not enough kind of worthy stuff, the balance is wrong, and vice versa. But it is about discipline, it is about writing lists every day and going okay, what is on my list today? What have I really got to get done, and what have I just got to say, either stop or defer to another time. So I am the queen of lists. And we have about five or six people with lists on
Annie Legge 28:08
I wonder if that is a prerequisite for being a community organiser. I have a lot of lists. Like that what I love my sort of key take out there was that that kind of rest is work and recognising that you then bring in much more creativity into what you are doing every day. If you do take the time for that. And we all know that, inherently we know it. It's just you get sometimes perhaps lost in our lists and an end up forgetting it.
Hannah Smith 28:39
I think something we do at the Green Web Foundation as well is really, really almost pressure each other to take time off. And we have it built into some of our employee contracts that you have to take a minimum of time off. And sneaking off to a conference to give a talk or go to a conference is not time off. Like you actually have time off, off, off off. No, no, no slack. No, you know, no emails, no conferencing, you know, actually lifetime off.
Annie Legge 29:09
I love that. Yeah, that's the way that's the way to build sensible organisational culture for sure. I'd love to just ask you, I guess a final question. We often ask this to people in terms of thinking really broadly around what does Tech for Good as a as a group of words group of three words, what does that actually mean to you? And we've touched on it a little bit but your your hopes and aspirations I guess for me moving forward for more broadly this kind of Southwest Bristol region.
Hannah Smith 29:46
Wow, that's a really great questions. I mean, I would say that my perspective of Tech for Good really broadened when I came up to an event that I know you were a big part of organising it was the young conference back in Oh, oh, I can't remember a past
Annie Legge 30:04
May.
Hannah Smith 30:07
That’s right last last year 2022. And that was really cool, because that did really open my mind to what other people think Tech for Good is. But for me, it's about understanding that Tech has limitations in terms of it should have limitations in terms of the amount of resources that we use, and that the resources that we do choose to put towards tech should always be used to provide benefit to the most number of people possible.
There's a quote that's going around my mind at the moment from Rachel Coldicott from Promising Trouble. I heard her speak a few weeks back, and she was talking about what if we had enough tech already, and the challenge was actually getting more people to use and have access to what we already have. And I think that that's really, really on my mind. At the moment. When I think about tech for goods, it's about smoothing out everybody's ability to access what we have, and to make sure that what is being used as being is supporting positive environmental and social outcomes as well. There's actually a really interesting hashtag. I don't know if you've ever looked it up. It's a tech for bad. It's quite good one. Yeah. And there's some people's writing and talking about that, you know, alternatively, the opposite view. And that's very much about talking about, well, you know, is it okay that we let we build tech for fossil fuel companies? Is it okay that we build tech for crypto mining or other kinds of things that have dubious social benefits? So that's, that's also really interesting way of looking, answering that questions looking at from the flip side as well.
Annie Legge 31:54
Yeah. And I think these these communities isn't it's around, actually, it's constantly reinventing yourselves and constantly sort of trying to look at the narrative and sort of support a widening conversation.
Hannah Smith 32:09
I think that's such a good point. Absolutely. It is about looking at the narratives around tech, and there are some really unhealthy narratives. I think that we're being sold at the moment. You know, the idea that tech will, we should have more tech in order to become more sustainable? I'm not sure I actually really buy that. I've got some real question marks around that as a narrative, and also about community tech as well. I think it's a really interesting narrative, the idea of, actually communities, putting Tech possibilities into the hands of communities can actually yield a lot more innovation than the big tech, big tech companies, you know, the big four tech companies. So I think that's a really interesting narratives around tech, the good what it could and should be as well.
Annie Legge 32:59
100% agree, and that community tech conversation is very much present in Bristol. So that's also really exciting. And we could talk forever, Hannah, it's been a fabulous conversation, your passion for digital sustainability. And what you do is, so come through so clearly, and it's an absolute pleasure to listen to you, thank you for sharing your amazing work. And for all that you do through Green Tech, Southwest. I know it's such a highly regarded community and network for all of us to learn from. So thank you for all that you do, as well and for joining us today.
Speaker 2 33:36
Oh, I'm right back at you not any as well thank you for you know, being being part of pulling all these different organisations together and kind of creating a network of networks. And that's so so valuable as well. So thank you, for everything that you do. And for all the passion that you have for Tech for Good too.
Annie Legge 33:56
Well, we can make definitely this region one to to hopefully, sort of spread across the country and share what we share what we do and see more of the conversation because that's ultimately what what we're all trying to achieve same objectives, just slightly different lenses. But thank you so much, Hannah. Pleasure. Really nice to chat with you, Thank you